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	<title>Comments on: Representation or vision?</title>
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		<title>By: florida car insurance quote</title>
		<link>https://forum.dawn.com/2009/04/27/representation-or-vision/comment-page-3/#comment-30121</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[florida car insurance quote]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/dawnforum/?p=212#comment-30121</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem with this country is BOTH the Democrats and Republicans. Anyone who seriously thinks that one side isn&#039;t corrupt or slaves to Corporate America hasn&#039;t done an adequate job of paying attention. To the Republicans: The GW administration will go down in History as one of the worst administrations. They eroded your constitutional rights, expanded the power of the wealthy elite, invaded countries under false pretenses, destroyed diplomatic relations with the rest of the world, and spent money like it was going out of style. To the Democrats: Obama is a failure. He promised much and has turned out to be another corporate lackey. He made deals with big pharmaceuticals to ensure you could not get your medication cheaper elsewhere, he flip flopped on military tribunals, he refuses to fix health care properly through nationalization or single payer, he populates his inner circle with more Wall Street insiders, he spends money on bailouts and useless stimulus packages.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with this country is BOTH the Democrats and Republicans. Anyone who seriously thinks that one side isn&#8217;t corrupt or slaves to Corporate America hasn&#8217;t done an adequate job of paying attention. To the Republicans: The GW administration will go down in History as one of the worst administrations. They eroded your constitutional rights, expanded the power of the wealthy elite, invaded countries under false pretenses, destroyed diplomatic relations with the rest of the world, and spent money like it was going out of style. To the Democrats: Obama is a failure. He promised much and has turned out to be another corporate lackey. He made deals with big pharmaceuticals to ensure you could not get your medication cheaper elsewhere, he flip flopped on military tribunals, he refuses to fix health care properly through nationalization or single payer, he populates his inner circle with more Wall Street insiders, he spends money on bailouts and useless stimulus packages.</p>
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		<title>By: goodgenie4u</title>
		<link>https://forum.dawn.com/2009/04/27/representation-or-vision/comment-page-3/#comment-5530</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[goodgenie4u]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/dawnforum/?p=212#comment-5530</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Secular mindsets tend to be more pragmatic, even if you are illiterate. On the other hand if you have a Phd in Math or History, but your ego is centred on your religion or race, none of the literacy counts!. That theory explains why the English Muslim doctors decided to become suicide bombers and attack an airport terminal. This example is not meant to single out highly educated Muslims. Anyone obsessed with a superiority complex be it religion, caste, race or priviledge birth can be as dangerous if the obsession turns into proactive self righteous power plays.

Within this context one sees India managing the extreme elements; not perfectly, but very well. India can act decisively in defeating elements that rip pieces from the nation. That&#039;s because the people and the government have a shared working  experience on how democracies solve people /community problems; imperfectly, but well intentioned peaceful processes that seem to take forever!

Mr.Jinnah hoped for the same process to work in the development of Pakistan. That, never got off the ground.

The elite Pakistanis that were supposed to make his vision a reality strayed from his vision. Partition eliminated competition from their Hindu counterparts! They devoted their time to get entrenched in wealth and power.  The millions of illiterate were denied secular education. They were exploited by the Muslim theme.  They left the young minds of a new country in the hands of functionally illiterate clerics, for their education. That gave rise to a pre-occupation with every thing Islamic; Kashmir, Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya etc. and nothing much else mattered, including their lives. Makes sense. It is a natural outcome. The Taliban are the extreme end, but are the creation of Pakistani government education policy. These policies continue at the moment you read this. Thousands of young minds cultivated in madressahs that yearn for religious/cultural norms of circa 800 AD. The good old days! It was a time when ordinary folks and specially women had no rights and there were no national boundries. Muslims were the world power. Religion, martydom and sectarianism based conflicts abounded.

In todays world, diversity, through immigration of labour, is the only thing growing faster than anything else. Democracy is a tool to manage the peace and prosperity in such an environment. Religion can only be an individualy protected right in this diverse setting. Why is this not good enough for peoply of faith or no faith? What is the need to insist that your neighbours have the same religion as you? This is not natural; it is something inculcated. 

India&#039;s development will be slow but steady and the entire world will learn that a nation state will become less and less important as people learn not to needlessly live in fear of people different from them, but to celebrate the difference and prosper from it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Secular mindsets tend to be more pragmatic, even if you are illiterate. On the other hand if you have a Phd in Math or History, but your ego is centred on your religion or race, none of the literacy counts!. That theory explains why the English Muslim doctors decided to become suicide bombers and attack an airport terminal. This example is not meant to single out highly educated Muslims. Anyone obsessed with a superiority complex be it religion, caste, race or priviledge birth can be as dangerous if the obsession turns into proactive self righteous power plays.</p>
<p>Within this context one sees India managing the extreme elements; not perfectly, but very well. India can act decisively in defeating elements that rip pieces from the nation. That&#8217;s because the people and the government have a shared working  experience on how democracies solve people /community problems; imperfectly, but well intentioned peaceful processes that seem to take forever!</p>
<p>Mr.Jinnah hoped for the same process to work in the development of Pakistan. That, never got off the ground.</p>
<p>The elite Pakistanis that were supposed to make his vision a reality strayed from his vision. Partition eliminated competition from their Hindu counterparts! They devoted their time to get entrenched in wealth and power.  The millions of illiterate were denied secular education. They were exploited by the Muslim theme.  They left the young minds of a new country in the hands of functionally illiterate clerics, for their education. That gave rise to a pre-occupation with every thing Islamic; Kashmir, Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya etc. and nothing much else mattered, including their lives. Makes sense. It is a natural outcome. The Taliban are the extreme end, but are the creation of Pakistani government education policy. These policies continue at the moment you read this. Thousands of young minds cultivated in madressahs that yearn for religious/cultural norms of circa 800 AD. The good old days! It was a time when ordinary folks and specially women had no rights and there were no national boundries. Muslims were the world power. Religion, martydom and sectarianism based conflicts abounded.</p>
<p>In todays world, diversity, through immigration of labour, is the only thing growing faster than anything else. Democracy is a tool to manage the peace and prosperity in such an environment. Religion can only be an individualy protected right in this diverse setting. Why is this not good enough for peoply of faith or no faith? What is the need to insist that your neighbours have the same religion as you? This is not natural; it is something inculcated. </p>
<p>India&#8217;s development will be slow but steady and the entire world will learn that a nation state will become less and less important as people learn not to needlessly live in fear of people different from them, but to celebrate the difference and prosper from it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ravi</title>
		<link>https://forum.dawn.com/2009/04/27/representation-or-vision/comment-page-3/#comment-5422</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ravi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/dawnforum/?p=212#comment-5422</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Focus on either representation or vision – it will matter least. When the time has come for an idea, good or bad, it will run its course. India seems to have latched on to a growth path and looks like this is the idea whose time has come.

Unlike most nations, India’s unity is strengthened not despite the diversity but because of it! India’s vision is not based on one version of any vision, but multiple vantage points of what may be one vision.

When there are a few forces reaching out for their share in a nation’s pie, there is a real chance of disintegration. But when there are too many forces – inter-religious, intra-religious, linguistic, skin color, facial features…you have a melting pot which does not allow any crab to crawl out the bucket to take charge. While this can make a lot of things suboptimal, it is also self regulating in a sense there is this continual shift in representation that is ever occurring.

And given all this jostling, vision cannot be driven or usurped by one quarter or another for too long – if its time has come it will run its course.

Shifting vision: Socialist leaning and central planning was the idea whose time had come at the time of independence ran its course for some 40 to 50 years. Now it is growth though private sector and regulatory reforms.

At best a party or a coalition of parties may temporarily hasten this multi-decade process. At worst they may slow it down some. But given the size and inequity in the country the participation in this vision will be incremental and take time.

Parties with national level ambition understand this by and large – weather their identify is tied to representation or vision in general.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Focus on either representation or vision – it will matter least. When the time has come for an idea, good or bad, it will run its course. India seems to have latched on to a growth path and looks like this is the idea whose time has come.</p>
<p>Unlike most nations, India’s unity is strengthened not despite the diversity but because of it! India’s vision is not based on one version of any vision, but multiple vantage points of what may be one vision.</p>
<p>When there are a few forces reaching out for their share in a nation’s pie, there is a real chance of disintegration. But when there are too many forces – inter-religious, intra-religious, linguistic, skin color, facial features…you have a melting pot which does not allow any crab to crawl out the bucket to take charge. While this can make a lot of things suboptimal, it is also self regulating in a sense there is this continual shift in representation that is ever occurring.</p>
<p>And given all this jostling, vision cannot be driven or usurped by one quarter or another for too long – if its time has come it will run its course.</p>
<p>Shifting vision: Socialist leaning and central planning was the idea whose time had come at the time of independence ran its course for some 40 to 50 years. Now it is growth though private sector and regulatory reforms.</p>
<p>At best a party or a coalition of parties may temporarily hasten this multi-decade process. At worst they may slow it down some. But given the size and inequity in the country the participation in this vision will be incremental and take time.</p>
<p>Parties with national level ambition understand this by and large – weather their identify is tied to representation or vision in general.</p>
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		<title>By: Shamoze Sarmastani</title>
		<link>https://forum.dawn.com/2009/04/27/representation-or-vision/comment-page-3/#comment-5016</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Shamoze Sarmastani]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/dawnforum/?p=212#comment-5016</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I totally agree with Mr.HB Mallah.

I myself am a Sarmastani. Though now Baloch people are accepting us as a low caste Baloch but I dont agree with them. Luri people are actually the inhabitants of Luristan(Iran) who migrated to Balochistan with Baloch tribes but they are not at all baloch. Here in Balochistan, politic is just a dirty game that rotates around the Sardars and strong personalities. Sarmatani can never think that these ruling personalities can give them a chance to get involed into politics unless our people do something themselves.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree with Mr.HB Mallah.</p>
<p>I myself am a Sarmastani. Though now Baloch people are accepting us as a low caste Baloch but I dont agree with them. Luri people are actually the inhabitants of Luristan(Iran) who migrated to Balochistan with Baloch tribes but they are not at all baloch. Here in Balochistan, politic is just a dirty game that rotates around the Sardars and strong personalities. Sarmatani can never think that these ruling personalities can give them a chance to get involed into politics unless our people do something themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: R S JOHAR</title>
		<link>https://forum.dawn.com/2009/04/27/representation-or-vision/comment-page-3/#comment-4801</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R S JOHAR]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/dawnforum/?p=212#comment-4801</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The strength of India&#039;s democracy is the secularism. Hindus, muslims, sikhs and christians living under same umbrella and yet co-existing peacefully is the beacon which India projects to the entire world. The countries who are governed on the basis of religion alone and yet suffering needs to follow secular India.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The strength of India&#8217;s democracy is the secularism. Hindus, muslims, sikhs and christians living under same umbrella and yet co-existing peacefully is the beacon which India projects to the entire world. The countries who are governed on the basis of religion alone and yet suffering needs to follow secular India.</p>
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		<title>By: Sukhwinder</title>
		<link>https://forum.dawn.com/2009/04/27/representation-or-vision/comment-page-3/#comment-4711</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sukhwinder]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/dawnforum/?p=212#comment-4711</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To Udarsh: 

Gulzar is a Sikh name as well. There are lots of them in Punjab and abroad.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Udarsh: </p>
<p>Gulzar is a Sikh name as well. There are lots of them in Punjab and abroad.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: sudhir</title>
		<link>https://forum.dawn.com/2009/04/27/representation-or-vision/comment-page-3/#comment-4680</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sudhir]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/dawnforum/?p=212#comment-4680</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Indian democracy is the perfect Democracy.The constitution of india cares each and every section of the society.If the political leaders of india follows the guidelines mentioned in the constitution then india will be the most successful democratic country in the world.Thanks to the visionary leader Dr.Ambedker.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Indian democracy is the perfect Democracy.The constitution of india cares each and every section of the society.If the political leaders of india follows the guidelines mentioned in the constitution then india will be the most successful democratic country in the world.Thanks to the visionary leader Dr.Ambedker.</p>
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		<title>By: hn</title>
		<link>https://forum.dawn.com/2009/04/27/representation-or-vision/comment-page-3/#comment-4629</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[hn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/dawnforum/?p=212#comment-4629</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Constitution. Ambedkar and Jinnah took it from the British adapted it to India and Pakistan. Indian went ahead and built a nation with it. Pakistan is not sure what it is and how to use it. Infact, Ayub, Zia and Mush has completely mangled it and distorted it. Now there is nothing left. Taliban is the only one left in Pakistan with a vision and protocol for governance, albeit ugly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Constitution. Ambedkar and Jinnah took it from the British adapted it to India and Pakistan. Indian went ahead and built a nation with it. Pakistan is not sure what it is and how to use it. Infact, Ayub, Zia and Mush has completely mangled it and distorted it. Now there is nothing left. Taliban is the only one left in Pakistan with a vision and protocol for governance, albeit ugly.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ratan</title>
		<link>https://forum.dawn.com/2009/04/27/representation-or-vision/comment-page-2/#comment-4587</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ratan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/dawnforum/?p=212#comment-4587</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah, I am not too keen on this &quot;cogent national vision&quot; thing either. Too much unity is a bad thing. Regional interests have to be represented and discussed. Compromise is the only way a government should be cobbled together. Good thing too. We must have disagreements and some discord. It also gives a lot of power to smaller states, e.g. Mizoram. Want my support? Well, here&#039;s three things you have to do for Mizoram. Perfect. This is how it should be. It leaves crazy ideas like Hindi as the sole national language in the garbage bin of history where they belong. This would have been settled with a bloodbath in many other places. In India, it gets converted into electoral calculations. I would pick that any day. We need much more of that, not less. In retrospect, Ambedkar was a genius. Nehru always takes the credit, but Ambedkar put the machine together, didn&#039;t he? Smart man. Find more like him.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I am not too keen on this &#8220;cogent national vision&#8221; thing either. Too much unity is a bad thing. Regional interests have to be represented and discussed. Compromise is the only way a government should be cobbled together. Good thing too. We must have disagreements and some discord. It also gives a lot of power to smaller states, e.g. Mizoram. Want my support? Well, here&#8217;s three things you have to do for Mizoram. Perfect. This is how it should be. It leaves crazy ideas like Hindi as the sole national language in the garbage bin of history where they belong. This would have been settled with a bloodbath in many other places. In India, it gets converted into electoral calculations. I would pick that any day. We need much more of that, not less. In retrospect, Ambedkar was a genius. Nehru always takes the credit, but Ambedkar put the machine together, didn&#8217;t he? Smart man. Find more like him.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry O'Toole</title>
		<link>https://forum.dawn.com/2009/04/27/representation-or-vision/comment-page-2/#comment-4582</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Barry O'Toole]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/dawnforum/?p=212#comment-4582</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[subro: Per the US constitution, even though the President is the Commander-in-Chief, s/he cannot declare war. That right lies with the Congress, and before the start of hostilities, the President approaches the Congress which holds a vote on the issue. 

In 1991, the Congress gave authority to Bush I to use any force necessary to eject Saddam out of Kuwait, hence the war was called off before the US troops had a chance to be in Baghdad. In 2001, the Congress gave a similar authority to Bush II to deal with Saddam.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>subro: Per the US constitution, even though the President is the Commander-in-Chief, s/he cannot declare war. That right lies with the Congress, and before the start of hostilities, the President approaches the Congress which holds a vote on the issue. </p>
<p>In 1991, the Congress gave authority to Bush I to use any force necessary to eject Saddam out of Kuwait, hence the war was called off before the US troops had a chance to be in Baghdad. In 2001, the Congress gave a similar authority to Bush II to deal with Saddam.</p>
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