Dawn.com invites its readers to debate current affairs in this forum.
On Sunday, three workers of the Tehrik Nifaz-i-Shariat Muhammadi (TNSM) and one Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) militant were killed during an exchange of fire between the two sides in Mamond tehsil, Bajaur Agency.
The clash erupted after TTP men arrested the son of TNSM Bajaur chapter chief Dr Ismail Khan, who is a close aide of Maulana Sufi Muhammad, as well as 15 workers on Saturday night when they were coming back home after organising a TNSM public meeting. The Taliban are of the view that nobody outside their ranks can carry or display arms or hold public meetings. Therefore, the move was opposed by the TTP Bajaur leadership and termed a ‘lashkar kashi’ (attack) against them. Subsequently, the Taliban erected barricades on entry and exit points on various roads in Mamond region and searched passing vehicles.
In reaction, TNSM local leaders announced a public meeting – a show of strength – in the Maina area of Mamond. The situation turned violent when the two sides opened fire on each others’ positions.
Is militant infighting the new curse of the tribal and northern areas? Do you think a power play between different militant factions is imminent? How should government officials and residents of the tribal agencies contend with clashes between militant groups?
What Pakistan needs is a direction. It has to make a decision where it wants to be in the next 5 years. 10 years.
The western world has its priorities figured out. They are capitalists, and they want to have a prosperous economy. Anything that can make them a few bucks is welcome (and hence the severe decline in cultural and family values).
After years of uncertainty, Indians finally figured out what they want. Economic prosperity. You can see this sentiment in Dawn’s posts written by Indians.
Saudi’s have no doubts about their goals and neither do the Israelis.
Based on recent activities, it is quite clear as to what Bangladesh wants (or what it doesn’t want). It has refused to be an Islamic state in the line of Saudi Arabia. It has dealt with the militants very wisely and sternly.
Russia is a confused country, like Pakistan. But, at least, they have leaders, and they control every inch of their territory.
The question is – what does Pakistan want? A good chunk, like Dawn’s readers, wants the economy and a forward move. Then some want to implement Islamic laws. The others agree, but there is no clear direction as to what kind of laws. The Saudi’s and the Kuwaitis know what kind, but not the Pakistanis.
So, how do you get a clear direction? Not when you have 10 confused leaders. You need a good leader, and a bunch in the making. In India, if Manmohan Singh loses and Advani comes, no big deal. Two Gandhis are getting ready. There are more. May be, Lalu or Mayawati. Whoever win will lead, and will be judged by the public in 5 years or less.
The way I see it, Pakistan hasn’t been that lucky during the last 30 years. Benazir and Nawaz Sharif. That’s it.
Benazir might have worked out the 3rd (or the 4th?) time around, but was killed.
Imran Khan had everything going for him, but that chance is long gone.
Musharraf never could see without his army glasses.
Zardari – well, the less you say about him, the better it is.
Nawaz Sharif is the only possibility. Doesn’t have a good track record, but he is a leader. In the present void, he will get another opportunity to lead Pakistan.
Let us hope he would have learned his lessons by then and figured out that he has to make every Pakistani wealthy and not just a select few.
John Ryan is for real? Muslim..taliban..islamic..all these does the guy know the meaning of all this? The state is not fighting muslims but fanatics who want to take pakistan to prehistoric times. Pakistan was not conceived to be what the so called talibanists want where a few illiterate mullahs want to terrorise the rest into their own personal ideas of what islam means
Amazing….1979 new brand of Islam came now it is called “Taleban”…..Now it is said this is islam, so generations before them were not true muslim, or you mean to say they were having no knowledge of Islam and now this new brand is islam…..
Taleban are nothing but agent foreign countries who wish to destroy Pakistan and see Pakistan subjugated.
All the educated and uneducated in Pakistan, can you please tell me from where they are getting all money, arms and facilities. FM Radio and other latest technology…..Have you ever thought about this
Open yiur eyes, they are the biggest enemies of Pakistan and they are making a fool of you in the name of Islam, these taleban are in NWFP…They are in Islamabad in Lal Masjid and some other mosque like this…They are in Karachi in Binnori Town Masjid, Makki Masjid and in Shah Faisal Colony area.
Please take care don’t be fooled yourself in the name of Islam…Be careful….They are devils in the dress of Islam.
Please read the Pakistan Constitution in its entirety, specially the following paragrah. Islam requires muslims to enter islam compeletely and does not give an option to pick and choose certain parts and reject others. There is no compulsion to accept islam as your Deen.
PART IX of Pakistan Constitution.
Islamic Provisions
227. Provisions relating to the Holy Qur’an and Sunnah.
(1) All existing laws shall be brought in conformity with the Injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy Quran and Sunnah, in this Part referred to as the Injunctions of Islam, and no law shall be enacted which is repugnant to such Injunctions.
Pakistan was created as a Muslim state for the Muslims to come and live in. Here is the ironic part, Pakistanis are now fighting and killing their own people who are making it a true Muslim state by introducing the Islamic Law. Without such law how can Islamic Republic of Pakistan be Islamic? How can Islamic and Republic go together?
Some sections of the media are calling Taliban etc as fanatics and potraying them as following un-Islamic traditions. I ask Pakistanis, are you now saying that Sharia Law is un-Islamic?
This is the problem, it’s finally time for all educated Pakistanis to make a choice, choose wisely.
Assalam-O-Allaikum
Also, I forgot to ask this, how come so many citizens are free in Pakistan to carry guns in public? I saw a recent picture of a holy man in Lal Masjid with two with Ak47s, standing behind him. Talking peace alone is not enough. Actions speak louder. Disarm these goons. Only army and other security forces should carry fire arms. How long can Pakistan stay stable with so many private armies?
Assalam-O-Allaikum,
Notice that many folks say fight against Taliban and Al Queda is not Pakistan’s war, instead it is war for US/ UK / AFgans to fight on its own. Then, Pakistani government should stop taking billions of dollars as payment;be bold, stop citizens from Pakistan from attacking people in troops in Afganisthan and India. Just butt out and stay out of other people’s countries and affairs. You want Taliban, Sharia, go for it. Do not thrust it on others.
Dear Bashir Bhai,
I appreciate your love for Taliban. You and your family may live in SWAT for one year and enjoy life there. Your mother will be lashed because her legs are not covered by pardah, you sister will be killed because she talked with a postman and received a postal letter. You will be dragged to the Mosque for prayers and you should not cut yr hair in yr life time. May god bless you.
Faith is a personal thing. Leave it in your hearts. Ameen.
ps to my last posting:
I wonder if the proclaimed “FATHERS” of the 2 nations will recognise what they had envisioned and what they are , now !!
i don’t know when they start dealing humans as humans – hopefully they live to see that day
Mohammed Sukhera ,
You forgot to add. Shred the constitution because your solution basically allows us to bow down to extremist laws. Just because it is practiced in Saudi Arabia does not mean they are fitting, rather they are archaic, in humane and downright human rights violations.
Stupid is as stupid does and you seem to propose its continuity.
To Gaurav Arya
words spoken have never been truer!
The battle in FATA and Swat is not a ideological or political war. Its more about the class war that was due to happen in Pakistan in wake of oppression meted out by Elite and Moderates to the poor and wretched. Pakistani state and citizens have long used and abused the Tribal populations to serve their ends, may it be Jihad against Soviets or protecting Durand line by feeding them as reinforcements to Taliban. Being an ordinary citizen, I present below my honest analysis which is welcome to be disagreed with. The disagreements would at least put to debate the causes which compel a human being in giving up peaceful living for an explosive jacket.
Social Composition of Pakistan: A Brief Analysis
Islamists
Islam as told by a Mullah, of a mosque or madrassa (being the only affordable respectable education available to them) who himself knows not what Islam is but a tool for his influence over people and power. Believing in what they are told to be Islam and adhering to it in letter and spirit.
Economically suffer from dearth of basic necessities, always being exploited by moderate as well as liberal feudals, traders or industrialists. Almost 99% chances of no change in economic circumstances during life time and remain subjugated to interests of better off moderates and liberals.
Morally strong, with great conviction, faith and adherence to tribal values. However, the very qualities, being untamed and un-nourished by education and political values, are fallible to maligned propaganda in the name of religion which remains the main source of energy and strength to these poverty stricken people.
Socially condemned to live a life of a primeval wretch, with no or negligible access to state run or privately owned social services. (People wonder why Taliban are destroying schools, they are not, they are being told to do so by Mullah in the name of religion to take away what little chances they have to progress in normal life and remain subjugated to their malicious propaganda). Acceptance of the divine will being the only solace available against miseries and maladies, develop fatalistic attitude. Simply said, death leads to paradise as, for them, it can be no worse than their earthly existence.
Moderates
Islam as presented by mainstream Ulema, laid down by various Islamic Jurists, believing in the basics but practicing on convenience. Adhering to letter but the spirit may be compromised. For some of them, mainly Mullahs, Islam is a powerful tool for having their nuisance value recognized by all and every one.
Economically the core engine of economic system, represent the professional and small landholders serving liberal elite by protecting their interests at the costs of poor; serving as lawyers, journalists, civil servants, accountants, doctors, engineers, Ulema, mullahs, bureaucrats and Army personnel. They remain dubious in serving their elite masters and whenever given a chance to rise, they subjugate them (Elite) by military takeovers or through bureaucratic conspiracies. Generally act as a buffer to absorb the wrath of economically deprived so that they do not threaten the interest of the liberal elite which ultimately protects moderates’ own vested interests. Some defaulting elements may join the ranks of Islamists to harness the potential of their destitution for threatening the liberals and gaining a position of bargain to fulfill their personal ends. Joining the elite, being the sole cause of existence, have almost 10% chances of getting admitted to the liberal elite.
Morally flexible, cherish the good old family and social values but are easily inclined to give them up given a good price on offer.
Socially complacent as they have access to basic social services provided to them by the elite to be able to serve their interests better. However access to these services is made a challenge to ensure the survival of the fittest. The non-surviving are taken to be of no use to the interests of Elite and may be allowed to rot socially which, in some cases, may eventually result in some of them becoming Islamists.
Liberals
Islam twisted in any way which suits their arguments and critique. Perceive it to be medieval, sixth century religion with no relevance to modern life. Following western ideologies, having no ideological identity of their own. Having progressive inclinations, in sixties, seventies and eighties, were flirting Socialism, in nineties, after demise of Soviet Union, subscribed to capitalistic agenda and may look for any other plausible alternative if capitalism falls.
Economically, the most provided and cared for both domestically and internationally. They are the masters of wealth, land politics and governance. With opportunities laid down at their feet, they control the moderates to maintain their stern grip on money, power and people. Often being benevolent or bogged down, carefully admit moderates into their ranks to ensure perpetuity and to ensure that moderates always have something to live for and not become a threat by joining hands with lower being islamists or non islamist poor.
Morally directionless, main source of morality stem from selected set of modern western ideologies with no roots in national or domestic social values. Being progressive in outlook, are ready to buy in every idea which promotes their vested interests. In guise of Human Rights, they are always ready to propagate and subsequently impose their modern perspectives on general populace to make sure that they do not pose a mortal threat to their way of life which thrives on exploitation of lower classes. In advocating their way of life, they would go to any extent having access to large monetary reserves and being masters of the powerful state and media machinery manned primarily by Moderates.
Socially active as they are the ones defining the social limits for each of the subservient classes. Not consumed with worries of basic social necessities, they are always busy setting higher social standards to keep the lower classes in uplifting their social status. Key tool employed is the discrimination in the quality of education for themselves, for moderates and for poor (if they have to be provided any education at all depending on their intended uses). Islamists mainly remain unaffected by this discrimination as their educational needs are taken over by the moderates being Mullahs thus providing fire power to these sub-classes of moderates and giving them a bargaining position with other moderates and liberal elite.
None of The Above
The bulk of people of Pakistan fall under none of the above categories. This category is generally referred to as the “Common Man”. The common men have essentially the same profile as that of the Islamist and the moderates allowed to rot but with one exception i.e., they are too busy fighting for the food and shelter to listen to Mullah or to the Liberal elite. They are economically destitute but they have a will and a hope to change their state of affairs. They are weakly holding close to their hearts, the good old family and social values. But with strong propaganda campaign of both Moderates (Mullah) and Liberals, they are finding it hard to transfer the same to their next generations and their social and moral hopes are evaporating in face of increasing gulf between Islamists and Liberals. They are practicing Islam in letter and in spirit. But, their spirit is fast diminishing with expanding war between Islamists and Liberals. They will stand up for anything which seems to promise them social and economic prosperity may it be and economic slogan “Roti Kapra aur Makaan” or social idol of “Freedom of Judiciary”. Fortunately for Pakistan, so far they have largely been mobilized by Liberals or Moderates other than Mullahs. But if their circumstances deteriorate to the extent of the Islamists of NWFP and Balochistan, they may as well fall a prey to the rhetoric of Mullah. And when that happens, all is gone for Pakistan.
The only way forward is to ensure that if the upper classes cannot share their spoils of corruption and huge wealth reserves, at least give them a social status worthy of a HUMAN BEING. Recognition as a HUMAN BEING gives a self esteem which becomes a barrier to become a suicide bomber or a man eater which otherwise are the only ways left for one to be recognized.
Gaurav Arya writes: “A lot of Pakistanis swallow the ‘Conspiracy Theory’ line wllingly.”
– – – – –
It is quite true that the generality of people, whose information sources are limited to mediated news and word of mouth, are prone to some wild imaginings with regard to conspiracies and hidden agendas.
But it is also true that in every country at any time there are numerous true conspiracies in full swing, mostly home-grown, but also including the covert operations of foreign agents. Only occasionally do we glimpse the tips of the conspiracy icebergs in the filtered news. Governments at all times are active in some degree in trying to agitate, disrupt, corrupt, destabilize, or control their announced or perceived enemy or client states.
In the U.S., the “neocons” (d.b.a. “American Enterprise Institute” etc.) successfully conspired to subvert quasi-democratic process and control the Bush government for eight years; operating from the upper echelons of the Pentagon and White House and from the back rooms of Congress, they were the “architects” of the Iraq invasion, and they still exercise outlandish control (a phrase I choose carefully) of foreign policy and other functions of government. The U.S. government is not simply influenced, but in fact infiltrated and corrupted by Israel. Only rarely is their continuous and blatant spying brought to light, and then without consequence to the Zionists, the American untouchables.
I am puzzled. A lot of Pakistanis swallow the ‘Conspiracy Theory’ line wllingly. There seems to be a national mindset in which common people believe that had it not been for the outside agencies or countries, they would have faced no problems. What is wrong? Are Pakistani kids being taught this in school or is it the general atmosphere?
– Was abdication of Jinnah’s vision a foriegn conspiracy?
– Was 3 decades of Army rule a Jewish plot?
– Was the surrender of 90, 000 Pakistani soldiers in 1971 done under American pressure?
– Was Kargil mismanaged by Israel?
– Was Chief Justice Choudhary imprisoned by India?
– Is Baitullah Mehsud a Hindu?
– Are the extremist maderssas in Pakistan funded by England?
– Did US interfere in Afghanistan without Pakistan’s active help…in the eighties? Why did you not have the guts to say NO to the Americans then? They had not threatened Pakistan then? It was purely voluntary.
You have to admit that the root cause of all your problems is domestic. If you were strong and united, no country would have dared cast an evil eye on you.
The Pakistani President says that the drone attacks are being done inside Pakistan by the US without Pak’s permission. Here is a suggestion if that is the case. Please disband your army and throw your nukes into the sea. What is the use of all this expenditure?
Lastly, forget about the Americans…they are a super-power. Why cant you fight the Taliban? Winning and losing is one thing…what I cannot understand is the lack of capacity of the Pakistanis to even put up a fight.
You have the capability and the capacity. But you must understand…India is not a problem. We dont want to invade Pakistan because there is nothing that we may want. We (India) are not an emotionally driven country. We do not want Lahore, Islamabad or Karachi. We want our stock exchange to cross 20000 points.
Trust me, our priorities are very different from yours.
There is a conspiracy to destablize Pakistan by creating a hysteria that Taliban are going to takeover the Pakistani Government and its nuclear assets. The Musharraf government coined this term of “Taliban” for the people who were against the government policies and to receive foreign aid. At least 25% of people in FATA and Swat live in miserable conditions of earning less than $50 a month. Successive governments have done nothing to address their needs for lack of funds or corrupt officials. They rightly believe that the Sharia laws will root out the corruption and provide cheap justice.
Current Pakistani leaders have their ill-gotten funds in Foreign banks and are still involved in illegal practices.This perception should be eliminated to gain confidence of Pakistanui people.
Here is the background of our current problems.
Our problems started in the 90s with war in Afghanistan. USA, Saudi Arabia, Egypt (major partners) poured biilions of dollars of weapons of Russian origin in Afghanistan through Pakistan during Regan administration to defeat the Russians. After the Russian left, all the weapons were sold or given away in Pakistan to general population at a fraction of its original cost. Most of the fighters who left their family, relatives and the country to fight the Russians in the name of Islam were inspired to create an islamic government in Afghanistan based on Islamic sharia.
These fighters were trained by foreign agents including USA.
Now the hard part is how we control this situation.
1: Stop using the term Taliban for people who want Sharia laws for their regions because they have no intention to replace or run the government.
2. Demand our leaders to give back the billions of dollars deposited in foreign banks and assets in foreign countries if they are really sincere.
3: Zardari should quit as president because he is totally incompetent to serve as head of the state as he had promised to other political parties. His tarnishied past does not convince the foreign heads as a honest leader.
4: The BB income incentive programs should be stopped immediately and replaced with job training programs in gainful skills.
5. The national assembly shoudl pass a strict law against owing a illegal weapons intended for military use. New project to buback illegal weapons from the public should be initiated and I am sure US government will help.
6. Government owned enterprises should be sold to general public or returned to the their original owners.
7.Call a meeting of Ulema and let them form a committee to relating Sharia laws in certain areas if the majority of the people want these laws. people should not be afraid of such laws because they are being practiced in Saudi Arabia for centuries. Actually they should be included in our current legal system.
8. Train and equip the law enforcement personnel to combat rampant crime/corruption in the country.
People who have written on this blog are educated…….Now if educated people start talking like this then GOD HELP PAKISTAN! I have read all the comments. I do not see even two people talking the same thing. All talking and thinking differently.
Most of you still think of foreign hands in all this. Guys each country has got its own share of problems.
I weep for every innocent life lost in the name of religion.
There has been much mumbo jumbo about the looming threat of the Taliban knocking on the doors of Islamabad recently.
As for me, I would be very happy to have them take control of this country for once. After all, the Army and our Politicians have been pulling a fast one on this country for the last sixty years and charging the nation very heavily for this. The Taliban are going to do this for free.
It should be anybody’s guess who is better.
This is very obviuos that the battle is not for is islam. It is only for Power, rule and wealth.
TNSM and TTP both only want themselves to be the ruler and not to be an example of true Muslim or Momin. How can we the common people follow them who spread violence and terror. who even dont know the spritual meaning of Islam that is “Salam’ti”.
Farooqui,
Very good and useful question to ask. In my mind the answer is ISI. The first Taliban was given his first gun by an ISI agent funded by the US during Zia. Then when he turned against USA, USA was replaced by Saudi in the equation with other parameters in tact. This is my theory.
Sid and mukund — you are 2 very confused people who need to do a bit more reading on the subject before commenting.
Sid — guerilla warfare isnt standard/conventional warfare. Of course we can use F-16s and Mirage-Vs to bomb the daylights out of militants…..but the problem is that civilians get killed too. In a guerilla war, how the hell can you fight it if you kill civilians who are on your side?
How can you send an army cobra to spray bullets on a hut, knowing that many stray bullets can kill a local villager who was just standing nearby?
Use common sense. The best way to fight the taleban is ON THE GROUND. Create hotlines where locals can anonymously report suspicious activity. Boost local law enforcement agencies, establish infrastructure projects, create jobs….and as i said earlier, we need the media to play a role. Fire the people up a bit, so they LASH OUT against taleban.,
The BLA is a weak group. Baluchistan will see economic benefits once the oil and Gwadar transit revenues come pouring in. BLA will become a pointless group. Pakistan needs a democracy because it is best way for grievances to be solved. We can see that despite unrest, things are improving in Baluchistan and indian-sponsored groups like BLA are becoming laughing stock.
Good fences make good neighbours. Pakistan doesnt need indian help or sympathy. Leave us alone and we’ll leave you alone. If you meddle in our affairs, you will suffer. For now, we have other bigger problems on our northern areas.
Therefore, as I stated, most of our resources for the time being should do to counter-insurgency, intelligence, investing into our land/physical/human capital.
There comes a point in time where we need to ask ourselves some questions. Obviously, the first one is, where do we want to be? Do we want to prosper and grown, taking advantage of our resource-rich country and bearing fruits for ourselves our children and our society….or do we wanna bow down to stone-age hypocrites who sport ugly beards and dictate what is and what isnt “Islamic”
We need to ask ourselves what direction we want to be heading in. Pakistan is a Muslim majority country and was founded as thusly….but dont forget we have minority groups who I am PROUD to call my Pakistani brothers/sisters.
Faith is a personal thing. Leave it in your hearts. Those that impose their will on others (by force) are rascals. The taleban are a bunch of low-life rascals. They will gladly call themselves Muslims, but then they will promote sectarian violence, bomb Mosques, kill others (mostly Muslims), destroy historical and educational institutions, and and and and and…
America is also to blame, and I appreciate Hillary Clinton’s recent statement admitting to the fact that America also shares the blame in what Pakistan is enduring. I am not averse to blaming certain nearby countries as well, who are jealous of the massive potential we have as well as our strong relations with countries like China.
The media and the people will be quick to take to the streets demanding for the Chief Justice and sacked judges to be re-instated (which is commendable). Where are these people now? Dont be shy or ashamed to speak out against the taleban. These people want to kill you. It doesnt matter what they are — punjabis, sindhis, pathans, uzbeks, afghans, or whatever. They want to control you. They want to tell you what you can and cannot do. Is that what you want?
I am only 24 years old, but even during that time I can say that I love Pakistan as much I did in early 1980s as I do now. But it hurts me to see what is going on.
Taleban cannot be trusted…We must boost the media campaign. Taleban rely on video propaganda to recruit and bribe young and naiive people to join them. Our free media should become the venue for counter-taleban shows/analyses/propaganda. Our media should not be shy to become sensationalist. We should learn from the Turks. Their media sparks emotion, and has been one of many things to help unite the masses against their own terrorists (the PKK)
What happens in Afghanistan affects us. We should do more to implement border patrols. Pakistan doesnt need american junk drones. We have our own capabilities to monitor the border. We have one of the best armies and joint forces (Mashalah) in the world. Counter guerrilla warfare requires counter-guerrilla tactics. Let these militants clobber eachother, and we should all clobber the hell out of them while theyre at it.
I reiterate — we have everything we could ever need in Pakistan. Lets celebrate our differences, set aside political or other affiliations and join our hands side by side.
Leave your religion at home. It has no business to be brought up in state or public affairs. PAKISTAN FIRST!!!!
If it was not for Islamic state, what for Mr.Jinnah fought for a seperate country excluively for muslims. These problems would not have drowned Pakistan had he got courage to implement Koranic rule at the outset. Because of his indecision, Pakistan is evaporating slowly and now people can neither go forward or backward. I being a Pakistani, feeling shame to identify myself as a Pakistani leave alone a Muslim.
Bravo TALBANS you killed 11 children today. I am sure your brand of Islam allows you not only to kill them but also eat their flesh.